Prag Dave Talks Agile, Waterfall, TDD & MORE (Dave Thomas) | The Engineering Room Ep. 17 Presented By Our Site

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Prag Dave Talks Agile, Waterfall, TDD & MORE (Dave Thomas) | The Engineering Room Ep. 17

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Dave Thomas joins Dave Farley in the “Engineering Room” to talk about agile vs waterfall, how software developers ought to look at software testing and gets deep into some of the interesting edges of programming, like algebraic effects, state and immutability and implementing monadic do blocks.

Dave Thomas a.k.a. Prag Dave, is one of the authors of the influential software engineering book ‘The Pragmatic Programmer’. He’s also one of the original authors and signatories of the agile manifesto, an experienced speaker and a thought leader within the software community.

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Equal Experts is a product software development consultancy with a network of over 1,000 experienced technology consultants globally. They increase the pace of innovation by using modern software engineering practices that embrace Continuous Delivery, Security, and Operability from the outset

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BOOKS:

The Pragmatic Programmer: your journey to mastery, 20th Anniversary Edition

Programming Ruby 1.9 & 2.0 : The Pragmatic Programmers’ Guide, by Dave Thomas

Dave’s NEW BOOK “Modern Software Engineering” is available as paperback, or kindle here
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“Continuous Delivery Pipelines” by Dave Farley
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LINKS:

The Agile Manifesto
Agile is Dead
Algebraic Effects

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CHAPTERS:

00:00 Intro
01:06 Welcome Dave Thomas
01:39 “‘Developing with agility’, not ‘Agile Development’”
03:22 You can’t Buy a pound of agility
03:51 Agile is Dead
04:20 The Birth of the Agile Manifesto
05:48 The Impact of Commerce
06:52 Values Not Rules
09:17 The prevalence of Imposter Syndrome
10:45 We Have Got Better at SW
12:35 How do we rule out the bad ideas?
16:01 Avoiding Test Nazis
19:08 Does TDD teach better design?
21:57 When is a bad idea a bad idea?
23:18 The ‘what I did on my vacation’ software book
25:09 The Reason Waterfall doesn’t work
26:10 Small steps and experiments or up-front design?
32:18 What are the boundary conditions of your code?
34:55 Being thoughtful about the problems we are solving
36:33 The danger with TDD
38:24 It’s OK to do some thinking up front
41:10 Iterating from both ends
42:38 Building intuition
45:56 Expertise is about not having to think about something
48:19 How would you structure a Computer Science Programme?
51:20 The Ideal way to learn to programming
55:21 The duty to pass-on learning
57:40 Immutable State is a key tool
01:02:24 Immutable Code
01:07:53 Where does state live or “Never listen to what I say”
01:09:28 Algebraic Effects
01:16:00 Using “Monadic do Blocks”…
01:20:56 Separating the transformations from the reductions in your code

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24 comments

  1. Dave Farley you should really stop promoting TDD and trunk development in your videos. Embracing trens is never a good thing. You have already done enough damage. I have seen so much damage done by the practices you promote, especially TDD and trunk development.

  2. DT lost me with the state discussion. Sorry but snapshots just kick the can down the road. If you and I have different snapshots that we have changed, we still have to figure out how to merge them back together. Anyone who has ever fried their brain on a git merge conflict knows that pain.

  3. What disappoints the most is that few teans really design their system. Most changes seem to be ad-hoc rather than through through as part of a product. And developers are not really comfortable in making any structural changes even if they need it. You will notice that these are not necessarily the environments with the most agility. They treat changes as a stream of work to be done, rather than something to develop.

  4. Wow, that was a really good video.
    I really enjoyed hearing the different perspectives about testing, and I totally agreed with how we should teach programs, immutable states, and the dynamic event style of code.
    Thank you for your time, and keep doing your good work

  5. Appreciate Dave F for hosting this – super important to have nuanced conversations like this; Probably his best interview imo. I didn't know much about Dave T before this interview (other than his name being on the manifesto), but I am shocked how much I agree with him: Will definitely check him out more.

  6. What D. Thomas says at 1:17:55 made me think of Reenskaug and Coplien's DCI. Aspirationally, DCI injects behaviour to maximise the ability to reason about code. I haven't tried it so can't comment. D. Farley's association moved in the opposite direction – not injecting essential complexity to improve the ability to reason about code. So I'm really curious if you ever tried DCI D. Farley? If so how was it?

  7. Sounds evil to me to figure out something, write tests for it, and when it is done delete the tests. The next person have to figure it out again, and if he/she is a sensible person, will write tests along the process.

  8. Of course your project is fine without unit tests in 6 months and coding by yourself. That's like an initial stage for many projects. What about in 6 years on a team of 6 devs that change every 2 years? There's plenty of evidence in industry, it's not like it hasn't been tried and it's just dogmatic. I can tell you because I've seen it many times – it's a total mess! The code can't be refactored, it's not object oriented, nested private methods everywhere, etc. People are afraid to touch any code because any change can break something. Even the smallest change will require extensive E2E testing. It's so bad that it's better to throw away the code and start fresh with unit tests from the start.
    And if a senior can write decent code without tests a junior in many cases can't. Spaghetti code, not object oriented, etc., etc. I've rarely seen teams of only seniors. Just by making your code testable you fix so many problems.

  9. "But Socrates, can virtue be taught?" I think the learning agility is exactly parallel (in many ways) to the paradox of learning in Plato's _Meno_. My ancient philosophy professor back in the day points out that the dialogue ends inconclusively, but with the twist that just maybe the intention is to show that virtue can be taught, but only by working through an example and living it. So in this case …?

  10. Re immutable code: A Maven JAR file is normally immutable, so if you request (Clojure DEPS/CLI style) something like `org.clojure/clojure {:mvn/version "1.11.1"}` you will always get the same library. However, there is alternate syntax `org.clojure/clojure {:git/sha "a8e32aefe55730119040548925cf0eba9ceacb48"}` which pulls source code directly from a Git repo with the specified SHA. In either case, you get immutable code.

  11. Yes! Experiment with practices! This is the “and-also” mindset. For example, we can support trunk based development “and-also” feature branches w/ script that keeps feature branch up to date. Stop considering ideas dumb. Be scientific minded. Well said, Dave Thomas!

  12. 16:01 I have to disagree on the advice of "Avoiding Test Nazis". Apparently I am the definition of a Test Nazis, because among all the pet projects I have created, the only one that I can sustain (others have been kept as reference and stale) is the one I keep 2 principles: All Tests pass and Coverage is 100%. Like these are the only 2 principles that you can quickly validate (given that you have the right tools). And when you have these 2, you are free to refactor your codes (cuz your codes will never be perfect and through the change of requirements, you will find it breaks SOLID or other kinds of principles in one way or another). Not only that, you also can change or refactor your tests: Make your test shorter, or easier to read with fluent validation, remove fragile tests, or reorganize them in certain orders, you are free to do it as long as the test set still pass and still cover 100% of codes (of course it does not mean the mutation test is 100%, but to be honest, you never reach 100% mutation coverage).

    Still, great talk! I love the part there are things you can only learn and cannot be taught.

  13. Dave (Farley), I highly suggest a small investment in better sound quality for your office/room/studio. Sound production is very clear on your monologue videos…not so much here.

    Even so though, great series, cant wait for more!

  14. Waterfall never existed. Today's process heavy ideas are Scrum and SAFe. They, unfortunately, exist. Upfront design worked for decades before people forgot the math.

  15. It was really pleasant and very instructive to see these contradictory and complementary exchanges of ideas on such a fundamental subject as the underlying vision of a development methodology. Keeping a journal of ideas tested and to be tested is a good trick. This conversation between two gentlemen with mutual respect for each other's vision must be the reference in the profession and should be watched by apprentice engineers. I can testify that I also learn a lot by looking at the history of computing. Thank you so much Dave(s) for being involved in these knowledge transfers.

  16. I think the conversation is Agile vs Project Management as waterfall is a symptom of PM. Agile is rooted in design thinking. Read the definition of design thinking and then try to explain how a schedule would make any sense. The problem is that most people, both technical and business managers can't figure out how to manage this.
    "Design thinking is a non-linear, iterative process that teams use to understand users, challenge assumptions, redefine problems and create innovative solutions to prototype and test. Involving five phases—Empathize, Define, Ideate, Prototype and Test—it is most useful to tackle problems that are ill-defined or unknown." Definition from Interactive Design Foundation

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