Dave Thomas joins Dave Farley in the “Engineering Room” to talk about agile vs waterfall, how software developers ought to look at software testing and gets deep into some of the interesting edges of programming, like algebraic effects, state and immutability and implementing monadic do blocks.
Dave Thomas a.k.a. Prag Dave, is one of the authors of the influential software engineering book ‘The Pragmatic Programmer’. He’s also one of the original authors and signatories of the agile manifesto, an experienced speaker and a thought leader within the software community.
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BOOKS:
The Pragmatic Programmer: your journey to mastery, 20th Anniversary Edition
Programming Ruby 1.9 & 2.0 : The Pragmatic Programmers’ Guide, by Dave Thomas
Dave’s NEW BOOK “Modern Software Engineering” is available as paperback, or kindle here
and NOW as an AUDIOBOOK available on iTunes, Amazon and Audible.
The original, award-winning “Continuous Delivery” book by Dave Farley and Jez Humble
“Continuous Delivery Pipelines” by Dave Farley
Paperback
ebook version
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LINKS:
The Agile Manifesto
Agile is Dead
Algebraic Effects
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CHAPTERS:
00:00 Intro
01:06 Welcome Dave Thomas
01:39 “‘Developing with agility’, not ‘Agile Development’”
03:22 You can’t Buy a pound of agility
03:51 Agile is Dead
04:20 The Birth of the Agile Manifesto
05:48 The Impact of Commerce
06:52 Values Not Rules
09:17 The prevalence of Imposter Syndrome
10:45 We Have Got Better at SW
12:35 How do we rule out the bad ideas?
16:01 Avoiding Test Nazis
19:08 Does TDD teach better design?
21:57 When is a bad idea a bad idea?
23:18 The ‘what I did on my vacation’ software book
25:09 The Reason Waterfall doesn’t work
26:10 Small steps and experiments or up-front design?
32:18 What are the boundary conditions of your code?
34:55 Being thoughtful about the problems we are solving
36:33 The danger with TDD
38:24 It’s OK to do some thinking up front
41:10 Iterating from both ends
42:38 Building intuition
45:56 Expertise is about not having to think about something
48:19 How would you structure a Computer Science Programme?
51:20 The Ideal way to learn to programming
55:21 The duty to pass-on learning
57:40 Immutable State is a key tool
01:02:24 Immutable Code
01:07:53 Where does state live or “Never listen to what I say”
01:09:28 Algebraic Effects
01:16:00 Using “Monadic do Blocks”…
01:20:56 Separating the transformations from the reductions in your code
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View Comments
"But Socrates, can virtue be taught?" I think the learning agility is exactly parallel (in many ways) to the paradox of learning in Plato's _Meno_. My ancient philosophy professor back in the day points out that the dialogue ends inconclusively, but with the twist that just maybe the intention is to show that virtue can be taught, but only by working through an example and living it. So in this case ...?
I think the conversation is Agile vs Project Management as waterfall is a symptom of PM. Agile is rooted in design thinking. Read the definition of design thinking and then try to explain how a schedule would make any sense. The problem is that most people, both technical and business managers can't figure out how to manage this.
"Design thinking is a non-linear, iterative process that teams use to understand users, challenge assumptions, redefine problems and create innovative solutions to prototype and test. Involving five phases—Empathize, Define, Ideate, Prototype and Test—it is most useful to tackle problems that are ill-defined or unknown." Definition from Interactive Design Foundation
It was really pleasant and very instructive to see these contradictory and complementary exchanges of ideas on such a fundamental subject as the underlying vision of a development methodology. Keeping a journal of ideas tested and to be tested is a good trick. This conversation between two gentlemen with mutual respect for each other's vision must be the reference in the profession and should be watched by apprentice engineers. I can testify that I also learn a lot by looking at the history of computing. Thank you so much Dave(s) for being involved in these knowledge transfers.
The Enterprise believes that agile and Scrum are synonymous and have plagued us all with that misguided idea.
Waterfall never existed. Today's process heavy ideas are Scrum and SAFe. They, unfortunately, exist. Upfront design worked for decades before people forgot the math.
I was in Computer Science program in the late 80's. Had to write Intel Assembly more than 50 lines.
Dave (Farley), I highly suggest a small investment in better sound quality for your office/room/studio. Sound production is very clear on your monologue videos...not so much here.
Even so though, great series, cant wait for more!
Dave Thomas talks about state in such an elegant way, he reminds me of high level artists talking about gesture. Partly because I understand neither.
Unit tests become more important when it comes to refactoring and code augumentation.
16:01 I have to disagree on the advice of "Avoiding Test Nazis". Apparently I am the definition of a Test Nazis, because among all the pet projects I have created, the only one that I can sustain (others have been kept as reference and stale) is the one I keep 2 principles: All Tests pass and Coverage is 100%. Like these are the only 2 principles that you can quickly validate (given that you have the right tools). And when you have these 2, you are free to refactor your codes (cuz your codes will never be perfect and through the change of requirements, you will find it breaks SOLID or other kinds of principles in one way or another). Not only that, you also can change or refactor your tests: Make your test shorter, or easier to read with fluent validation, remove fragile tests, or reorganize them in certain orders, you are free to do it as long as the test set still pass and still cover 100% of codes (of course it does not mean the mutation test is 100%, but to be honest, you never reach 100% mutation coverage).
Still, great talk! I love the part there are things you can only learn and cannot be taught.